Online Discussion with Karen Pryor: Clicker Training in the Shelter Environment

By KPCT on 08/01/2002

Filed in - Just for Shelters - Other Announcements

The Shelter Discussion

An e-mail discussion held on July 11, 2002

Topic: Clicker Training in the Shelter Environment
Moderator: Karen Pryor, www.clickertraining.com, with Dee Ganley and Nancy Lyon of Upper Valley Humane Society.

Note from Karen:

This discussion took place via Yahoo. People joined the Karen Pryor on-line Yahoo Group ahead of time or during the day, and could read the posts as e-mail or at the Yahoo Group site. Over 300 people participated.

At the end of the day we closed the site, planning to keep it available as a read-only archive. We ran into trouble with that, but luckily our webmaster, Greg Parsons, had maintained a file of all the emails as they arrived. So, working from that file, I've been able to prepare an abridged text version of the day's discussion. I removed advertisements, headers and footers, and off-topic letters. I also removed a few questions by accident; I hope the content of the answers will make the questions clear. Please accept my apologies for any annoying or serious omissions or errors that may have occurred during this process. Whatever got left out is entirely my fault.

I have added identifications and topics at the start of most of the letters so you can skim and read what you want. I suggest you save it as a file rather than trying to print it out, as it totals some sixty pages Enjoy! Reading this file is truly an education.

Karen Pryor

Opening message of welcome from Karen Pryor

This message said welcome and explained how the discussion would work.

Dee Ganley, Upper Valley Head Trainer, asks questions of everyone

Good morning!! karen and everyone !

Here is a great Quote from a dog friend "no question is a stupid question" ...."The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes" -Proust

I thought I would ask how do you work with shy dogs at your shelter?
Do you have outside large exercise pens for your dogs?
How often do you put large groups of dogs together to play?
How offen do you walk your dogs?
Do you give your "stray" dogs names?
If you do do give new names what are you doing to help the dog learn its new name?

Yours in Dogs !!
Dee
"committed to teaching and learning through cooperation and Kindness'

Dee Ganley CPDT
Dog Training Services
member APDT 4944
Check out our website at:http://www.lunnflutes.com/deesdogs.htm

Karen:

Thanks for all these good questions, Dee! I'm hoping that we'll hear something about how you and Mary and Nancy deal with shy dogs at Upper Valley!
KP

From: "bcrescue_tx" Subject: [KP-online] Hello

i just joined the group and i am excited to be a part of it.

i run a rescue for border collies in texas. has anyone here used the clicker techniques specifically in the shelter inviroment, and is it useful in the short term, or only for dogs that are going to be fostered for a while? Thanks LB

Kate Behaine has some questions

Hello, Karen Pryor wrote >You may start sending in questions and reports on your own experiences at any time< Since I am not sure that my work scheduled will allow me to participate in the scheduled forum at the set time so I wanted to go ahead and post a few questions. I would very much like those with experience dealing with these issues to address them for me. Your responses are very extremely important to me and will influence the direction and policies that our animal welfare organization will adopt. I look forward to your replies and want to thank you in advance for offering your expertise and insight. My questions are:

1.) Could you provide a list of the problems that occur with the dogs in your shelter due to long term kenneling and what symptoms to watch for that tells you a dog is not doing well in the kennel?

2.) How long do you feel is too long for a dog to stay in a kennel environment *on average* and what do you do in these cases for the dogs that exceed the limit?

3.) What are the issues that will be presented for an adopting family who gets a dog that has already spent a long time in a kennel and what type of training and behavior management actions should they use when they get home to help the dog adjust.

Thank you very much.

Kat Behaine Houston, Texas

Dennis Owens Minimizing resistance to change

Shelter management is actively embracing changes that will, in the long run, improve placement and retention of animals, improve employee morale, increase positive community involvement and I suspect bolster private donations.The question isâ€¦ Where and how to start implementing changes with the shelter workers on the front line? How are people encouraging shelter workers to implement "Clicker training for shelters"? What's the first step and how do you minimize resistance to change? Thanks, Karen!

Dennis P. Owens (animaltrainer@hotmail.com)

Karen responds to Dennis Owens
Subject: Re: [KP-online] Minimizing resistance to change

Thank you, Dennis, for these questions. I happen to know that Dennis is working with one of the most challenging shelter populations I've ever seen, and in a very difficult urban setting. I am sure that many people will have comments and contributions to this topic. As a starting point, however, may I suggest we all go look at our NEW Shelter Resource Center on line, which launched yesterday! Go to www.clickertraining.com, and on the left hand menu click on Shelter Resource Center. You'll see the question, "Where do I start? What do I do next?" Click 'begin here.' This will take you to a core document on levels of involvement in the shelter world. You can see more or less at a glance where your shelter stands and what the next moves might be. There's also a document on getting started without a teacher to guide you, and even if no one in the shelter has tried clicker training before. This is surprisingly easy, and people are doing it; maybe we'll hear from some, today. The front page also gives you a variety of free supporting documents you can print out, ranging from brochures and fact sheets for educating board members and managers, to working documents such as "Make your kennel a No Bark Zone." Please do explore; this Resource Center is for and by all of us and we'll be adding new features and downloads all the time. I will probably be referring to various items on it all day. We really want your ideas and comments. KP

From: Karen Pryor
Subject: Re: Short term use of clicker in shelters

You wrote: i run a rescue for border collies in texas. has anyone here used the clicker techniques specifically in the shelter inviroment, and is it useful in the short term, or only for dogs that are going to be fostered for a while?

This is an excellent question. I think the great value of the clicker for foster and shelter dogs is not in developing completed behavior but in awakening the dog's ability to learn and to focus. This can happen in just a few clicks. You take an inattentive, bouncing off the walls dog who is only paying attention to doggish things, and teach him that click means treat, and then rapidly click and treat eight or ten times for eye contact, for standing instead of jumping, for coming toward you, for sitting, really for anything he does without prompting that you like--and the dog realizes that HE is making you click. Bingo. It's like turning on a switch in the brain. They begin to react to people in a new way--people become important, and people who click are REALLY interesting. Shy dogs perk up and manic dogs calm down and start controlling themselves.

If the dog is only around two days, you can still sneak in a few two-to-five minute clicker sessions, for sitting, walking calmly at your side, waiting at doors, sitting for supper etc. The dog can also get an occasional click and tossed treat for staying calm as you pass the crate or kennel; in fact you can do a lot of this without even taking the dog out of the kennel. None of this takes much training background, just a willingness to keep the clicker and treats handy.

In this brief exposure the dog can learn a whole new way of being a dog. If the next owner then even clicks just a few times, the dog will be so relieved and will try to find out how to please the person. . Even if you haven't taught a single actual 'obedience' behavior you've transformed the dog's ability to relate to people and that's going to make him a lot easier to have around, and a lot easier to teach new manners to, with or without the clicker. It's made-to-order for the often hectic and overworked shelter environment.

Karen Pryor

Karen comments on value of sharing knowledge:

You wrote: would very much like those with experience dealing with these issues to address them for me. Your responses are very extremely important to me and will influence the direction and policies that our animal welfare organization will adopt.

At least for now, I am going to leave this question for Dee Ganley and other group members who are shelter clicker trainers full-time but I thank Kat Behane very much for explaining her reasons for submitting it. Goes to show there is a real need to share our knowledge about behavior and clicker training in a group setting like this. Over 200 people have signed on for this one-day session, and I think we will all learn from each other. Karen

Karen responds to a question from Danielle on clicking shy shelter dogs

1) Shy or unsocialized dogs understand clicks and treats much better than they understand soft words and petting .Leave the dog in its kennel and click and treat, tossing the treats into the kennel, several times. Even if the dog continues to hide in the back, it will see the treats and probably eat them later. (Use very small pieces of soft cheese, not kibble--you want a high-value food, at first, and one that won't spoil if the dog takes a few hours to find and eat the treats) Click and treat dogs on either side so it sees them getting clicks and eating the treats.

Click the dog for coming forward, even a step or two. Sometimes this procedure is all it takes for a fearful dog to give up being fearful and start participating in earning clicks.

It can be a mindset thing as much as a temperament thing (although it can be a genetic or temperament problem too, we have all certainly seen that. I am very leery of these dogs, personally.)

If you have time to work with the dog out of the kennel, a simple behavior to click is to teach the dog to touch the back of your extended fist, for a click and a treat. (Start with food in the extended fist, then go to bumping one hand and feeding with the other.) This allows the dog to make physical contact with you on its own terms. When the dog is confidently bumping your fist, over and over, you can have someone else sit in a chair, extend their fist, and you click the dog for nudging them. If the dog is very worried you can put your own fist next to the stranger's fist, at first.

In The Clicker Journal Coralee Burmaster described using this form of targeting to get an adolescent airdale through a period of being fearful of men, by having the dog touch outstretched fists. I used it once in seminar to overcome fear of children in a flat-coat that had been teased in its home neighborhood.

We did three sessions, using my granddaughter Gwen (11 at the time) in the first two sessions, and the 'scariest kid' around, an active little girl of 8 or so, in the last session. The results were dramatic.

The dog had summoned up her courage to bump the little girl's hand two or three times, when suddenly she went right past the fist and gave the child a big smoochy kiss on the face. The child laughed, the dog wagged, and the next time I saw them, during a break, big black dog and lively little girl were stretched out on the carpet together socializing.

I don't promise that always happens, and I was working with the dog's very clicker-skilled owner and with Turid Rugaas, or I never would have brought any child into the picture (Turid's granddaughter.) But the bump-the-fist can be a nice tool, used thoughtfully. And if the dog knows the behavior it can be a nice way to introduce a potential adopting family to a dog and vice versa. One family member can be the target, another can click, and a third can treat. KP

Bev Manheim on shy shelter dogs
Subject: Re: [KP-online] using the clicker short term in rescue situations

It also seems to me that using the clicker is a *safer* way to start building a relationship. Some shelter dogs have problems with handling and so in the short term you build confidence in the dog (and handler) and in the long term, once there *is* a relationship, you would be able to begin a handling program. Just a thought.

Deb Manheim, CPDT

Nat asks about clicker training's effect on adoption rates, and clicking cats.

I'm actually interested in helping out at the SPCA in our region as there is no training going on there- not many dogs and cats but a few (very small town)-

Anyways, I was just wondering-

(1) Since you've started training/clicking at your rescue, have you seen a larger number of people adopting/fostering the dogs?

(2) Do you clicker train any of the cats- I've heard you can do this- so was just wondering if anyone here has done this for either shy or aggressive cats in rescue? (I'm a beginner at this so know nothing about the rescue environment).

(3) For dog on dog interaction- what do you do with a dog who is- not aggressive- but just so excited when he sees other dogs- how would you use the clicker in this instance? Would you leave the dogs in opposite cages- and then work your way to having them play together?

(4) You must have a great number of rescues? So you may not always have much time to sit with each dog? When they are adopted- do you suggest clicker training to the new owners- do the people have to sign a form saying that they will do basic training with the dog- or do you do courses at your rescue for adopted/fostered dogs? I guess I was just wondering how you would set it all up-

Nat www.goldensadored.com

Karen Responds to Nat's post about clicking cats

From Karen:

I've sent the dog related questions in this interesting post below to Dee Ganley at Upper Valley Humane Society, our featured shelter right now on the new Shelter Resource Center at www.clickertraining.com. I'm going to address the cat question.

By the way, Go read the account of Upper Valley (plus photos) linked from the Shelter Resource Center front page, for an inspiring story of a completely clicker shelter. (Plus statistics on their results re: adoptions up, retention up, euthanasia rates down.)

Cats: yes you can click cats right in their cages in a shelter.

One shelter worker told me she went down the whole line of cats, clicking once and delivering one good treat (freeze-dried minnow) to each cat; she wanted to start conditioning them to the clicker. The next day she came in and clicked the first cat once, and every cat in the room came to the front of its cage.

Cats love making us click, and it provides them with some mental stimulation in the boring confines of the shelter. They can learn targeting, for example, by watching other cats across the aisle. It gives them confidence and thus reduces stress.

It is interesting to a cat to earn tuna nibbles for a click, and they discover, sometimes in seconds, that they can make you click by sitting, by turning in a circle, by lifting a paw, by touching a target (a pencil, say) that you hold up to the bars. (Some of course are reluctant and take a long time to get into the game--these, I think, are the very ones who most badly need clicker work--it's something to think about, something to do, something to look forward to.)

Yes, you can use it to reduce shyness (just as with dogs). I recently heard from a volunteer (unfortunately the email is not on this computer or I'd include it) who successfully c/t'd a feral male cat, post-neutering. He learned to target, to tolerate petting, to come when called, and to do a high five and was successfully adopted.

The big handicap to c/t with cats is constantly available kibble and the resulting obesity. If you really want to do more than just a few clicks for mental stimulation, i.e. if you really want to change the cat's behavior, take the kibble away for a couple of hours before you train.

And remember that five or ten clicks is a big training session for a cat. They learn fast but in very short bursts. It's as if they have to rest after each burst.

I recently did a Clicker Clinic at Potter Animal League in Rhode Island, where they are using the clicker with ALL the dogs but not cats yet, except that one staffer was trying to work with the shelter's official cat, who has the run of the place. That cat was not eating treats, so progress was slow until they took up the kibble overnight, and also found a preferred treat, brown oily tuna (not the white kind.) When I was there they showed me the cat's spin, target to a chair seat, and very nice "Sit pretty."

Then they put me on the spot--teach her something new. I targeted her to a chair seat and lured her to put her front paws on the back of the chair, clicking one paw up, then the other. In about five clicks she got that, and held the pose, and on the third try, embellished it by jumping up onto the back of the chair and waving one paw while standing on this narrow place with the other three. Wow! This is a large, tubby tabby, too, so tough stunt! We got another chair, put them back to back and 8 inches apart and she immediately volunteered to stand with front paws on one back and hind paws on the other--she would have tackled anything we gave her, and was learning it all on one click per behavior. Cats are awesome when they really get into the clicker game!

Carol Stevens on clicking cats

My primary focus at our shelter here in Austin, TX is the cats in the stray building. Their stay in the building is generally short and miserable, and I'd be interested in hearing how clicker training can help them become happier and, by extension, even adoptable! A few of the cats seem happy and vocal and reach out to people who walk around the building, but most of them sit hunched over, terrified, at the back of their cages. Volunteers who are not recognized members of rescue groups aren't allowed to touch the cats, so it sounds like using a clicker would be ideal. Thanks for any ideas that you can give us! I'll pass the information on to fellow rescuers.

Carol Stephens Austin Siamese Rescue Austin, TX

Diane Cuff Subject: [KP-online] Re: Clicker Training cats in the shelter

>Karen Pryor wrote:> Cats: yes you can click cats right in their cages in a shelter.> One shelter worker told me she went down the whole line of cats, clicking once and delivering one good treat (freeze-dried minnow) to each cat; she wanted to start conditioning them to the clicker. The next day she came in and clicked the first cat once, and every cat in the room came to the front of its cage.

This is how it is at my kennel! I know, it's a boarding kennel and not a shelter, but they are SO closely related! Hope no one is upset by it. I would love to see our shelter, as well as other kennels, run like this. I'm hearing from this list that I just have to go in there, to the shelter, and start doing! As those in charge aren't willing to learn - yet!) Anyway, I click one and I have all's attention - even the horse shows up to see if there's a chance something's in it for him!

> Cats love making us click,

They sure Do! I started clicking our kitten when Karen was on dogread, and that's also when I took the clicker into the kennel full-time as part of the routine, and not just for special play. It is amazing how easy the cats are, and how fast they 'get it'. I had one cat boarding and I was playing agility games with the kitten, and I do think the boarding cat totally understood what was happening, as I would click and she, not the kitten, would meow, like "treat Me". I then had her targeting and more all over her condo, making her stay here, I think, even better. Normally, all animals were 'clicked and treated' with verbals and positive attention, and would target for petting and praise, but with the mechanical click and food, oh, the learning is limitless! Thanks SO much, Karen and all!

Peace and Light,Diane Cuff

Danielle Gauthier asks about barking in the crate or kennel

Thank you Karen for your answer about the shy dog...

I have another question for you (excuse my poor english I'm a French canadian):

The other day, I had a very beautiful brown labrador of 10 years of age. Very gentle, well socialized but he has never kept alone so he didn't take to be left alone in his cage for the night or for just a moment. When I was with him, everything was ok, but the minute I was walking away from him, he began to bark none stop. This barking behavior was always starting when I was out of his sight. How can I make him stop barking with the cliker method (we know that the barking problem his starting when I away from him and out of his sight).Thank you again for your answer.

Danielle Gauthier

Karen says:

Would somebody else like to tackle a clicker response for this out-of-sight barker question? KP

Karen responds to Deb on hands off training

Deb Manheim wrote:

You betcha. I click a ton of dogs I've never seen before, and I NEVER touch them. Sometimes they initiate social contact, after we've got a clicker thing going together. But you don't need to start with 'bonding,' because the clicker game is so clear to the dog.

Hands-off is great, and then you can use the clicker to ask the dog what it's willing to tolerate -- can I hold my hand over your back? Yes? Click treat. Can I put my hand on your back? Yes? Click treat. Then if you have time to work it in, you can build handling into a dog that is not used to it. Can I touch/hold/your paw, ear, tail, etc.- click/treat.

We teach this a lot in veterinarian clinics that are becoming clicker clinics.

Susan Mann on changing a tough shelter

--- In KP-online@y..., "katradog" wrote:

> Shelter management is actively embracing changes that will, in the long run, improve placement and retention of animals, improve employee morale, increase positive community involvement and I suspect bolster private donations.

In the shelter I'm involved with, the management and Board is resistant, whereas the front people (adoption counselor, other employees) are very friendly, are interested in doing something more, seem fairly open to change, especially clicker change. Our Board has 2 members who are trainers and offer discount to their class (which is only offered 1-2 times a year,has 20 people/dog teams in it, held in a horse ring and you can't hear what they're saying half the time- and you guessed right if you figured out they are very traditional J&P trainers, no food, no toys in class!)

> The question isâ€¦ Where and how to start implementing changes with the shelter workers on the front line? How are people encouraging shelter workers to implement "Clicker training for shelters"?

The folks in the front were impressed by 2 things:

1- I brought Kyp! in for a visit to say hi- she was adopted from there having been brought in as a stray, and she was awful (very hyper, not paying attention to people at all) when she was in there. This was the dog they had started the Ritalin jokes about,and now she was walking nicely on leash, doing tricks, greeting people enthusiastically but not jumping up, and they know she is doing agility as well.

2- They had a dog they were calling a BC that I personally don't think was even a BC mix- looked more like a hound/pointer or something (yes, I think they'll call something a BC mix to get me involved, find a place for it!) I don't take dogs myself except for very short periods before I can transfer (I live in a towhouse with 4 dogs already!) and I knew I'd not have any credibility if I took this dog down to a BC rescue group. So I decided I would work with the dog to make him more adoptable- we worked primarily on sitting when a person approached his cage, and a little bit on walking nicely on leash. He'd been up for adoption for 2 weeks and no takers, was adopted almost immediately after my second session with him (which may or may not mean anything, but I'll take any sign I can get!) He was brought back immediately due to allergies the person didn't know he had, and then adopted immediately again.

Just my 2 cents worth- looking forward to hearing from the experienced people!

Susan Mann, Tip Top TrainingPepper, Scout, Brodie, and Kyp!

Dee Ganley replies to a question about long term kennel problems:

Sorry its taken so long for me to reply computer glitches:-)!!! Ya got to love em..thanks Greg!!for the help..

You wrote:

My questions are:

1.) Could you provide a list of the problems that occur with the dogs in your shelter due to long term kenneling and what symptoms to watch for that tells you a dog is not doing well in the kennel?

Bouncing off the walls, Pacing, painting the kennel (running through its feces), lick comma's, curled up in a fetal position, lots of bark for no reason..there are many more please other feel free to add to the list!!

2.) How long do you feel is too long for a dog to stay in a kennel environment *on average* and what do you do in these cases for the dogs that exceed the limit?

I think each dog is an individual some adjust to life in the kennel just fine and can stay for months even a yr or so..they thrive on this type of condition. Not many but a few.. Other a few days or weeks. Really depends on how much enrichment you can offer these dogs.. Daily walks, large play areas, car rides help for change of scenery and environment.

We have a new dog new home document that we give to all of our adopters. This spells out how they are to introduce the dog to its new home and all family member. We also ask that they possibly foster to adopt the dog and make sure its going to work for all. They work with myself for Nancy one on one for as long as it takes or some might decide that the dog is too needy and its not what they really wanted. But this helps us know more about the dog and the dog has had a great vacations!! I can send you this doc. If you would like a copy just email me in a few days and ask for new dog doc.

Hope this helps Dee

Thank you very much.

Kat Behaving

Houston, Texas

Alejandra Pardo MenÃ©ndez on dogs confusing who got clicked

Hello everyone! I'm very happy to be here, and to have the oportunity to interact with Karen and all of the other GREAT trainers, that I admire very much.

I have a dog school/shelter here, in Mexico City, with just a few dogs at the same time, and the clicker has been amazingly useful for me, as for my clients and friends.

The question I have is how do I make a specific dog (between 5 -6 dogs in separate but near cages)understand that a click was meant for him, and not for the other dogs, as on the contrary...wouldn't the other dogs get a bit confused with a click that sounded next to them, but that wasn't actually meant for them?

Thank you very much for your answer, and for sharing your knowledge and experience with everyone interested. Congratulations for this unique learning opportunity!

BiÃ³l. Alejandra Pardo MenÃ©ndez
Dog trainer and behavior specialist
MÃ©xico City MEXICO
pardomen@psi.net.mx

Karen on topic When you suspect previous obedience training...

One of the nice things about clicker work is that as you point out, once they get the idea of the game, the dogs often inspired to show you what they have previously learned. Dimly remembered "Shake hands" or whatever come swimming to the surface of the dog's mind. It's fine if he offers you sits and downs. Click them! You can add a cue, a word or better yet, a hand signal. You can click them in different areas or while facing in different directions, and you can work on extending the length of time the dog will sit for a click. Two seconds, five, fifteen...whatever.

The more different ways the dog has of making you click, the better; so if he brings something to the table, great.

Meanwhile you can also work on loose leash walking, sitting at doorways and going through quietly, accepting handling, following your hand as a target (useful for crating, gates, getting up onto the grooming table, moving BIG dogs without having to lift them, or small dogs without frightening them) and anything else you can think of. Build on what he's got and add more, besides. The purpose of the clicker is to teach the dog how to LEARN, and build his skills at learning stuff, and at focussing on people and on what he can do.

That will stand him in very good stead in his next home, whatever the people know or don't know about dogs.

Karen Pryor

Karen on Minimizing resistance to change and the tough shelter

Thanks, Susan, for this first-hand account of beginning to make inroads in a resistant shelter, by turning around the behavior of two hyper dogs. Personally I don't care if the board members are the resistant ones--and it sounds as if the board is pretty well dominated by traditional trainers in your case -- change begins best at the grass roots, I think. Clicker training, especially in the kennels--quieting the barkers, or calming the ritalin-prospects, as you did--is often started by a volunteer and spread to the staff by exposure, like measles. Then the utility of the process becomes so apparent that it can become standard operating procedure; see the Upper Valley account.

I suspect it may help to present the clicker work NOT as training per se, that is, not as the equivalent of an obedience class that teaches six or eight behaviors on command (heel, sit, down, come, etc.) but as a sort of behavioral rehabilitation tool, a way of helping dogs transition to adoptability...a shelter management technique, NOT "training." Indeed, you can use it for training, but it's kind of the precursor aspects of it that are more valuable in the shelter--teaching calmness, quiet, confidence, teaching the dog how to learn, and how to interact with people in a dog-to-person way instead of a dog-to-dog way.

Possibly we as a community can make the concept less resistance-generating by focussing on the humane and transformative aspects of the process rather than the 'training' aspects? Just a thought. KP

Dee Ganley Upper Valley program answers questions about adoptability data

(1) Since you've started training/clicking at your rescue, have you seen a larger number of people adopting/fostering the dogs?

Yes defiantly our foster to adopt program. The adoptions have increase because the dogs have good skills and can walk on a leash now how to settle and are not jumping up on everyone!!

Yes we have just started doing that since Karen was last here at our place. From what I understand all is going well. Mostly for targeting objects the hand a pencil, for fear issues its helped a lot. Works well for the dogs too. I have a great document for targeting for fear issues for dogs I don't know why it wouldn't work for the cats just as well.. Karen you may have already talked about this one..sorry if its a repeat! I'm just catching up..

We usually take both dogs for a walk. We require dog intros before anyone can take a dog home with them. We show the owners how to walk with both dogs on leash and stay about 10 feet apart. Mean while click and then treating both dogs for being calm and non assertive.. If we have to we will start much further apart and gradually get closer. Some times it might take a few tries.. I don't like putting the dogs side by side because of barrier aggression cropping up.. So walk both dogs on Gentle leaders if possible. Slow and easy then once both dog seem fine we will take them into a play cage and let the quieter dog off leash and see if it wants to interact with the wilder one.. again clicking for any calmness on either dogs parts..

Usually with in a few minutes info its going to work the dogs will start to play at that time I usually take both leashes off and let the dogs get to know one another. Now you must know your dogs and have a good idea of who this dog is. We temp test all dogs and cats that come into the shelter.. We also put playgroups out together so we know what types of dogs these dogslike and can see form the beginning if its going to work!! You need to learn this skill and have good confidence that these too dogs will be Ok..I always tell the owners to not pet any of the dogs for the first 10 minutes and towalk away if the dog comes near them. This way defusing any resourceguarding behavior before it can start!! Clicking all good behavior and onlytreating the right dog.. No Free Treats!!

We highly suggest and for the dogs we have been working with for a long timeor we think are "thirdway dogs " hard to place dogs who we have decided towork with we will suggest Fostering to adopt..we are still working an theprotocol at this time but have tried many different things.. I will be gladto share what we do but email me privately in a week or so..

Your friend in dogs Dee

Lisa Rodier and Sherri Lippman introduce a clicker program in a new shelter

Hello All,I am pleased to be able to say that another trainer, Sherri Lippman, and I just introduced the "Clicking in the Shelter" game plan to theCharlottesville-Albemarle SPCA on Tuesday. At this point, we instructed staff to click for quiet. Eveyone is extremely excited about Saw a fewfolks from the SPCA today, and the excitement is still there....

Questions:

1. When a kennel worker takes a dog out of a run, many of the dogs (still in their runs) go completely bonkers. What's the best way to try to get quiet in this situation? Double team, and have one person C/T the quiet dogs while the other walks out with the dog or???

2. Kennel workers are keeping the clickers with them, rather than hanging them on the runs, to keep the public from clicking non-stop. Any suggestions as to how to keep the public from dipping in to the treat supplies that are kept between runs? Am considering small signs that say "Staff Use Only."

3. Any suggestions for treats that are tasty, but have "staying power" and are cheap?

Thanks for your input! Lisa Rodier-Yun
Earlysville, VA

Karen on clicking multiple dogs

Dear Alejandra,

Thanks for joining us! You wrote:"The question I have is how do I make a specific dog (between 5 -6 dogs in separate but near cages)understand that a click was meant for him, and not for the other dogs, as on the contrary...wouldn't the other dogs get a bit confused with a click that sounded next to them, but that wasn't actually meant for them?"

Guess what. The dogs don't have this problem. PEOPLE worry about it all the time ("How can I have a whole class clicking at once, won't the dogs get confused?) but the dogs don't get confused. They can SEE that they're not getting a treat for that click, and some other dog is. They can see where you are looking. They can also see what the other dog is doing, so if they know what the click means, they will often learn by watching other dogs get clicked.

You can go up and down your line of cages, looking at each dog as you click it, clicking and treating one dog and then another, and nobody will get confused, and everybody will learn. This is why clicking is so very effective in getting a bunch of dogs to stop barking. Forever. They know who got clicked and who didn't, and they all learn to be quiet.

Karen asks:

Dee, Do you think that the clicker sessions your dogs get from your S.T.A.R. volunteers help dogs tolerate being in the kennels for long periods?

Karen Pryor

From: Dee Ganley Dogs who already know how to sit!!

How do you suggest you use clicker training with a shelter dog you suspect already has some training? For example, the dog immediately "sits" or"downs" when it becomes aware of the treat.

Our volunteers will try and shape a new behavior if they have time..

Maybe tossing the head or sitting up something cute.. We had one Rottie who liketo announce any new visitors!! (Normal Rottie behavior) so we taught her to target a cofee can lid taped at the back of her kennel..she couldn't do both and she really wanted the treat!! So then she would get up and place her nose the the lid waiting for someone to click and treat her.. She did get adopted and it was because we gave her an alternative behavior to do instead of Scare the day light out of them..If no time just reinforce the sit!! Why not its what we are looking for!!

Karen to Carol from Austin. Cats in the Shelter Environment II

I'd be interested in hearing back from you, Carol, if you try some clicker training with the cats. It can certainly be done without touching them. I'd suggest drawing up a protocol on paper for how to proceed (will you use a special treat food? The tuna that comes in pouches is good. Where will you keep it? Where are the clickers? Who keeps track? What behaviors can you click? Initially you might just want to click and place a treat, and then go on; the cat might not eat until nightfall, but it will remember the next day! Remember they watch each other, too.

Are the dogs noisy and nearby? I suspect this adds enormously to the stress of the cats. Where shelter cats are in a quiet environment they are often quite easy to get responses from. Where the room rings with barking it's much harder to find a cat that will respond quickly, in my experience.

So debarking the kennels (using the download from our website) is something volunteers could do on the dog side that would help on the cat side. Just a thought KP

Susan Mann Re: Minimizing resistance to change

--- In KP-online@y..., "Karen Pryor" wrote:

Thanks, Susan, for this first-hand account of beginning to make inroads in a resistant shelter, by turning around the behavior of two hyper dogs.

Personally I don't care if the board members are the resistant ones- -and it sounds as if the board is pretty well dominated by traditional trainers in your case -- change begins best at the grass roots, I think. Clicker training, especially in the kennels--quieting the barkers, or calming the ritalin-prospects, as you did--is often started by a volunteer and spread to the staff by exposure, like measles. Then the utility of the process becomes so apparent that it can become standard operating procedure; see the Upper Valley account.

I kind of figure that I am working "under the radar" as far as management is concerned- unitl things are cooking along a bit. I definitely agree that grass roots is the way to go! Thanks for the encouragement- I'm hoping I'll get some ideas on how to keep working and making some changes gradually. I'd love to do a seminar there, but that would have to go through management, and I don't think we're there yet.

I love this idea!

Possibly we as a community can make the concept less resistance-generating by focussing on the humane and transformative aspects of the process rather than the 'training' aspects? Just a thought.

I think you hit the nail on the head! I offered (proposal to the board before I knew who was on it- silly me!) to run a free class for new adopters (3 sessions), and although the focus would have been on basic management stuff and some very basic training (housetraining, grooming, etc.) the trainers on the board probably saw it as competition for their classes, and it didn't get through.

Susan Mann, Tip Top Training
Pepper, Scout, Brodie, and Kyp!

Karen on Upper Valley tips

Thanks, Dee, for this great answer [re: clicking fearful cats]. I didn't know you were targeting the cats and am happy to learn it's having a beneficial effect on fearfulness.

Folks, we have wonderful papers from Upper Valley in our shelter section, you can just print them out and use them, one on barrier aggression and one on entering and exiting kennels quietly. I'd LOVE to see one on targeting to overcome fear, Dee Mary and Nancy, and also on introducing playful dogs to each other with the clicker.

Just as a personal note, without knowing what the Upper Valley protocol is, I've been using my friendly poodle, Misha, to defuse dog-to-dog defensiveness in my neighborhood, by teaching each dog we meet to play with him, and then to play with my crabby old terrier (actually she's the one who is learning from Misha to trust other dogs more.) I don't usually bother with clicks and treats, just gradually extending the interaction until we can step into my back yard (fenced) and let the dogs off-leash briefly.

It's made my dog walking much easier, no more crossing the street to avoid trouble each time a dog comes along!

The other owners are 100% clueless about dog society as a rule, so they are happy too when the situation gets calmer. Karen Pryor

Karen answers Shelter Starts Clicking!

Dear Lisa,

Congratulations on starting a clicker shelter program with a bang! Definitely, quieting the kennels is a big opening move!

Dee will be answering some of your questions too, but meanwhile, my two cents:

Yes, I have seen debarked kennels that are okay until a dog is taken out and then there's uproar. I would definitely suggest double-teaming; one person takes the dog out but stops the instant the barking starts, while the other person clicks for quiet, and then repeat as needed. Lots of work the first few times but I think it should work and be no longer needed fairly soon.

As for clicker and treat use by the public, I've seen various solutions. At Yankee Golden Rescue here in Boston it's my understanding that the clicker folks wear retractables on their belts and carry the treats in fanny packs. I've seen the treat supplies put well above eye level where you can dip in but people don't notice them.

Sender lostâ€¦query on sporadic clicking

I am just a once-a-week volunteer dog walker with a a lot of experience training my own dogs and teaching puppy classes and the like at a dog club. Suppose the shelter dogs are free fed and handled in very inconsistent ways by a lot of different people. throughout the week. Suppose that some of the dogs were being taken (not by me) to "the dog Nazi" for training now and then. Is there any point in me attempting clicker training once a week, with all of those hands tied behind my back?

Tammy Mrose answers Boy, it couldn't hurt! I know dogs and horses who haven't heard a click in years that bounce from one behavior to the next in their excitement to "play the game"

Tammy Mrose
Deerwood Kennels
Keeseville, NY

Linda on power of clicker with scared strays

I am neither Karen nor Carol, but I'm into clicker-training for rescue cats! ;-) I am fascinated with this discussion, by the way -- I'm learning TONS. Would love to get C/T into our local rescues and shelter. I'm in the Washington DC (USA) metro area.

I have Karen's book-kit, on clicker-training cats. I've used it some with our owned cats, and with foster cats. What's great about it for me (aside from the fun) is the short-burst thing for cats. Because I work full-time at a non-animal-related job :-(, I don't have bunches of time to work on it. But I DO see cats "get it" rather fast! And I work with stray (aka "feral") cats doing this.

I haven't tried c/t with a brand new feral, but I've used it with cats who have been inside in a training cage for a month or so, or in our spare bathroom. With shy but friendly "soft" strays in particular, c/t is something that can help them really come out of their shell. Cats are prone (in my experience) to dashing behind something to hide from sight, but if you just click and TOSS a treat their way a few times, they realize that they don't need to be so shy.

At this point that's all I can say, because I am a real beginner. I'm reading all that I can find about others' experience, and I am trying things when I can. I wanted to say thanks to Carol for trying c/t with shelter cats. I hope more of us try it, because I'm convinced it can save lives.

Linda

Karen on public clicking dogs in the kennels

At Potter Animal League they teach visitors, including especially children, to click and treat the dogs for sitting inside the cage. Someone goes with them to monitor,I believe. Several shelters are sending adopters home with Getting Started Clicker Kits for dogs and for cats (shelters can order them wholesale on our website) which is a great help to the animal in the transition to a new home. Even if the people don't really train, just click and treat a few times,for the dog it's like getting to a foreign country and finding someone who speaks English. KP

Nancy Lyon on resistance

For those who might encounter resistance introducing the clicker to their shelters, how about selling clicking as a method used to communicate and not call it a "training" method. We all want to get our shelter dogs to repeat good behaviors and stop repeating bad behaviors. In the shelter environment most of the dogs have a wide array of "bad" behaviors, most are the result of no self-control. The clicker lets everyone - staff/volunteers and most incredibly the animals speak the same language. It is the communication that results when the humans begin to stop talking, pushing, pulling, touching, manipulating and begin seeing, capturing and reinforcing "goodness". Almost instantly the dogs understand that humans with clickers only talk with them about how to get "good" stuff (food or play or walks or pats) just for paying attention to them quietly. The remarkable effect on everyone in a shelter who uses the clicker and reinforcement is the collective sign they hear back from almost every animal when it realizes that ften for the first time, the humans are listening to them. Though our volunteers teach some basics obedience with the clicker, our primary goal is using it to teach self-control - loose leash walking, sit for greeting, waiting to enter/exit, exchange for valued resources.

Nancy Lyon
102 Shaker Street

This is a wonderful description of what happens with clicking shelter dogs. Thank you, Nancy Lyon.

Karen Pryor

Just a thank you for Dee and Karen

Just wanted to thank you guys as this is so VERY helpful- especially since, where I'm located, the training is still very traditional(Quebec region- Outaouais)- so I'm off to check out the rescue articles- Thanks! www.goldensadored.com

Karen on schools for clicker training (query lost)

Most of the people who are now clicker training professionally have taught themselves, through reading everything they can get their hands on, through getting on internet lists and asking questions, and through training their own and other people's dogs and starting interest groups or clicker classes in their own area. It would be nice if you could just go to school and get the information delivered to you, but I don't believe that's possible yet, at least not for the kind of training we are talking about.

You can get college psych courses in behavior analysis, the science underlying clicker training, but they don't usually cover the practical applications; and you can get college biology courses about animal behavior in general, but again, practical applications to dog training are not the focus. Still, that's the place to go for in-depth theory.

I believe the Association for Pet Dog Trainers --apdt.com--is offering some training courses in association with their certification program. Deb Manheim? Any APDT certified trainers wish to help out this questioner?

Alejandra on cheap treats

For those who asked for cheap trates that dogs love: Here in Mexico City we don't have as many dog treats available at the stores, as up there in the States, therefor we usually switch to "human food", that's cheap and practical.

Personally I have obedience trained many dogs with very small morsels of sausages, yes...those made for humans! Also, you could try different types of cheese...and cookies have had great responses too!!! I've tried a lot of different food like this, and it's very practical, because cookies, for instance, are not expensive, can be broken in small pieces, and many dogs that once lived in a household, remember their taste and love them! Good luck!

BiÃ³l. Alejandra Pardo MenÃ©ndez

Thanks, Susan,

I'm glad you like the idea of going under the radar and not comparing clicker training to obedience training. Keep us posted as you continue! The Shelter Resource center on clickertraining.com has a discussion site for progress reports!

Karen Pryor

Quincy Animal Shelter needs help

HI, We purchased your shelter product. I have some of our volunteers doing the clicker training but since not everyone is doing it other volunteers are very skeptical. Is there any way you could come down to give us a demonstration for these skeptics?

Thanks Jeanie
Quincy Animal Shelter.

Karen on Cheap treats

Dear Alejandra,

Thanks for this. I think 'live' food is always more interesting to the dogs than commercial treats, especially inexperienced dogs. Remember that the treat you give after a click can and should be VERY small. I usually cut a six-inch hotdog into quarters lengthwise and then into 1/4 inch slices, making exactly 100 treats per hotdog. A big dog might work hard for forty treats and still have had almost nothing to eat in terms of quantity. So that's cheap.

Welcome to the new members who keep signing on! This is a great discussion opportunity for all of us!

Subject: Cheap treats

If there's an Asian neighborhood anywhere near you, you could look for the tiny dried fish that are often sold in bulk. Those are pretty inexpensive, stinky and gratifying to dogs, and since they're dried they keep well. I have heard them recommended as a "generic" version of Dogchovies.

Jolanta Benal

Cats in the Shelter Environment II

Thanks for this wonderful feedback, Linda! I'm glad "Clicker Training for Cats" is helping you with timid and feral cats.

"Clicker Training for Cats" is available at our website and also comes as a kit on a hanger card, with clickers etc., sold retail at shelters and vet clinics. I loved writing it and learned a lot about cat biology from my clicker cat Mimi during the process.

Karen Pryor

Melissa Alexander, owner of the Clicker Solutions list

I'm coming in late -- am frantically reading messages trying to catch up.Just wanted to say hello. I'm a clicker trainer in Seattle, and I co-own theClickerSolutions mailing list and Web site. I don't work with shelter dogs,but I have lots of friends who do. Great topic!

Melissa Alexander
http://www.clickersolutions.com
Check out our online classes!

Dee Ganley on targeting for fear issues

Will do.. We have a nice written doc. on targeting for fear issues..I'llsend italong..It works great!!

Another way to work with the shy dogs is to Click any brave or forward motions.. Ears forward, tail not tucked under look for the little things, then walking towards you. at first just toss the treats so the dog doesn't have to come and get thetreat!! Toss away from you and the dog but make sure he/she can see you dothis.. Don't sweet talk him be quiet!! Watch your body language don't face the dog ..turn your body and makeyourself as little as possible..

Karen replies to Need Help starting

Hi, Jeannie,

Yes, you are within striking distance of my company, and we can arrange a Shelter Clicker Clinic for staff and volunteers. Sorry, I think you asked before and I assumed someone else had followed up on it. Right now we can only do this in the Boston area (eastern Mass., Rhode Island, Southern NH and VT.) We require that the shelter purchase an orientation kit ahead of time so that they have teaching materials on hand and some time to get familiar with them; we also prefer the shelter to be able to make kits available for adopters so the dogs and cats have some follow up when they go home.

For those of you in other areas, we are establishing a group of volunteers that can give our Orientation clinic at shelters in their area. To learn more about the introductory clinic, and being a volunteer, please go to the Shelter Resource Center on clickertraining.com. This is a beginning program, we have lots more organizing to do to help everyone, but some wonderful and skilled clicker teachers are participating.

Do remember that the most effective way to change people is to reinforce what you like and ignore what you don't like. We would not give you a clinic with the goal of converting the skeptics but with the goal of increasing the skills and opportunities for the people who are already getting results. The skeptics need to be reinforced for the efforts they do begin to make (and it is catching) but not for the resistance they put up per se! Of course resistance is sometimes just fear, so a few clicks and treats will often get them out of the corner and participating.

Cats would like those, too! (was Re: Cheap treats

You wrote

Any ideas for how to deal with animals that love the treat TOO much, by the way? I have a wonderful cat at home, she's very smart, and I would love to get her c/t'd more, but she is CRAZY for the Three Dog Bakery's "We Pity the Kitties" salmon freeze-dried treats.

And your problem is what?

Ooops, sorry! The problem is that I don't get a chance to click her, she is after those treats. Or, if I DO have a chance to click her once, that's all I get because after she gets the treat, she doesn't want to pay attention to anything else, she will climb my pant-leg or grab to get the treats. Should I switch to non-food treats for sessions with her, and, if so, what would be good things to try? I guess that I'm not sure where to go from that first c/t with her.

Best,
Linda

Karen on Cat crazy for treats II

The cat doesn't yet understand that she must hear the click to get the treats. I would get out one treat, break it into the smallest possible increments, and condition her to the clicker separately from training behavior, by clicking and dropping a treat in a bowl and then walking away while she eats it. I would do this at odd times of the day and in different places. If she starts climbing and otherwise mugging me I would only click again when she stops, backs up, or turns away. If she really uses claws etc. I would crate her and click where she can't mug me, passing one tiny treat per click through the bars. I'd only click when she is sitting quietly. This is the same advice for dogs and horses that try to mug you for food. It's necessary to get rid of that behavior--it is a LEARNED behavior by the way--before you go on to train other things. So for a shelter discussion I think this is worth reading, because some shelter animals have learned to bully, rush at, or intimidate people to get food. They may not be mean or aggressive, really, they've just learned that this works.

Then perhaps your first behavior with any animal that attacks for the food should be targeting. Teach the cat to touch the end of a three-foot stick for a click and treat. That keeps her away from you and gives her a very specific task to make you click, a task she can't do until you present the target. So it's an excellent first behavior for the pushy animal.

Subject: Re: [KP-online] Hello

Hi, Melissa, thanks for joining us. Melissa has just finished writing a book of clicker questions and answers called Clicker Solutions, which we are proud to be publishing. It should be in print in the late fall. It will be an enormous help for all of you who deal with skeptics, traditional trainers, and the general public, because it has ALL the questions that always come up, AND the wonderful answers that have been collectively generated by the clicker solutions list over the years. So when someone says "Why can't I just use my voice?" or "Yeah, but what if the dog does something wrong?" or "You can't get reliability without force..." you will know what to say back, and you'll have Melissa's authoritative knowledge behind you.

James O'Heare Re: Education

--- In KP-online@y..., "Karen Pryor" wrote:

> Dear Anne-Claire,And none of them pay more than lip service to clicker training in my experience.>

At the ACBT our training courses are ALL about clicker training. If it's training, it's clicker training. The reading materials and asignments are set up to get into detail not just on the techniques but also the learning theory underlying it.

James O'Heare

www.acbt.ca
www.dogpsych.com
www.companionanimalpsychology.com (nolonger valid)

Great, James. Thanks for joining us.

Karen on dog barking in crate

The dog barks when you leave the room and he is in his crate.

Mitigation: when you put him in his crate, give him a frozen Kong with a treat inside.

Alternative: put a helper in the room. When you leave, if he is quiet, you click from another room and the helper gives a treat.

Or: you leave. He is barking. Make a surprising event happen in the other room (turn the vacuum cleaner on. Or, spray a scent.) If he stops barking momentarily, while digesting this new event, click and go right in and treat him, and then turn around and leave again. Even if he is barking again, you got that click in, when he had stopped for an instant, and that will tell him Silence is Good.

Or: click him for barking! Go treat, giving him a word for quiet -- "Tais toi"- and click him for silence. Then say "Parlez!" go out, he barks, you click, come back, treat...he's quiet while he's eating, you give a cue for silence--do the same at the door or any other time he barks, actually teach him to bark for a click and be quiet for a click, back and forth, and you may find you can tell him to be quiet from the next room, and he will, and you can then rush in and jack pot him and let him out of the crate.

The barking when you leave is a LEARNED behavior, as with the dogs in the shelter kennels, you can replace it with other learned behavior.

Good luck,

Jeannie on adoption kits

Need Help starting Clicker training at my shelter

That would be great. I would love to have the kits go home with the adopted animals. I would like your input on exactly what should go into the adoption kit.

To setup the semiar have someone call me either at home or at the Shelter. You should have my home phone number on file or the Shelter phone number is 617-376-1349.

In the future when I get good at clicker training I would like to help out with training other people.

Thanks Jeanie

I have a question regardin non food motivaed dogs.

I am hestitant to try food deprivation to any extreme. We have tried almost every kind of food imaginable with this dog...nothing seems to work. He is also a picky eater..literally taking one piece of food out of his dish walking away, eating it and then going back for another piece. HELP!

Paula

Targeting for fear issues

Hi there,

I had great success with a very shy golden. We taught him a hand touch with the owner. We then had her transfer this to touching family members hands for a click and treat. The next step was strangers who were not too intimidating, etc. We eventually had a dog that would approach people and touch there hand (on cue) for a reward. This seemed to help develop some confidence in general terms around strangers as well.

Paula

Gentle leader conditioning?

Hi folks (love this discussion BTW!),I noticed that Upper Valley Humane Society uses gentle leaders and martingales. Dee (or someone else), can you talk about how you condition the dogs to them? The typical advice for your average dog owner is to gradually introduce the GL, always associating it with good things over a period of days or weeks. Obviously this is hard to do when the shelter dogs need to go out, but will most certainly pull their brains out.

Do you get any bucking broncos with a GL? (I've had this happen when a dog with a very high prey drive saw a cat) I'm not referring to pawing at the face, rather the back flips that seem to result from frustration at having its head turned by the GL when it REALLY wants something and starts pulling.

Also, can you describe your program for loose leash walking (LLW)? That is a hard one given the time constraints and crazy activity in a shelter environment.

Many thanks!
-ali (volunteer at the Seattle Animal Shelter)

Subject: [KP-online] Re: Education

If anyone is interested in a university level program of study asclose to dog behavior and training as possible got to http://www.dogpsych.com/education.cfm and you will find links to Bucknell University and Southhampton University. They have what seems to me like the best programs of study in that area.

James O'Heare

Subject: [KP-online] Is this information going to be available after today?

Hi, This is the first chat line I've been on so I don't know how they work. There are really some great techniques and idea's here

I would like to use. Is this information going to be available after today? I'm so happy I decided to join.

Thanks Jeanie

Subject: [KP-online] Cheap Treats

I have been reading these posts for most of the afternoon. What a resource of information on your training! I have had success using Cheerios as a treat. They are small and the generic brands are inexpensive.

Robert Hill
Alexandria, VA

Dee Ganley on barking dog in the crate

Just a few other things!!

Peanut butter works really well because the dogs are licking it off the roof of its mouth. This will give you time to go out and come back in!! Only work on this for Short intervals. Take him out and play and then repeat.

You must also remember that the dogs should be crated while you are present and moving around the house. Teach him a stay cue and work on him lying down and holding his position while you move around. The dog only wants to do something fun!! He is telling you that you are fun.. So what is wrong with this picture!!! We walk up and down the shelter aisleways many times a day and we at least tell a dog just what a great dog it is for lying down and not getting up..

I think that you are talking about a dog in your home.. Make sure if you do come back into the room that the dog is queit for at least 10 seconds before you treat.. I like karens Idea of someone else treating the dog for being quiet Too!! Be inventive try lots of different things. You could honk a horn when the dog barks as long as its Not at the dog.. We don't want any fear coming into the picture.. So if you are in the garage sit in the car when the dog barks honk the horn.. When the dog is quiet for a short period 10 seconds click and then treat..

If the dog is barking when you are in the room get up and leave the room. This will work well. He will be confused for a few seconds lng enough for you to click while he is quiet and come back into the room I usually don't treat right away because you coming back is a big reward!!

Diane Cuff on Cat that grabs at the owner for food

You place the treat on a coffee can lid or in a dish of some sort so the cat down't come to you..you go to the dish..We have Pot bellied pigs and they are veryyyyy pushyyy around food.. So when we clicked we would toss a treat toward a feeding station pretty soon if we clicked a behavior the pig would run to the station and not charge us!! Yippee.. Worked great for the pig and us.. Should work for the cat..eventually we were able to hand feed.. the other walks out with the dog or ???

Double-team would work best, but what if you are working alone? What I do, as it is mostly the animals and me making this movie, I play, there are rules.

Here's a story:

Niki is 11 years old now, 45# K9X, and can jump nose to 6' from a standing start. This is not good for his joints, etc, so I do not want to reward it, but it is SO ingrained into his repitoire as it is heavily rewarded at home. Funny how the dog thinks that his jumping and whining will bring me to him sooner (same premise as c/t), and at first it would because I would be concerned for his safety (what if he slipped or caught a leg in the gate - I would ask him to wait inside in the beginning if it was't his turn so he couldn't practice the undesired behavior more than I could reinforce the alternative), so I would wait in front of him, c/t 4 on the floor, c/t sit, cue sit c/t, go thru the whole routine over time teaching him what I expect and how he needs to go about getting what he wants - me to come to his run, unlatch the gate, have him put his head into my lead (he's now an off-lead dog), LLW to the yard, wait until I say he can Go!, and then he can be all the dog he is - biggest reward, with each step c/t'd.

Anyway, when it's yard time, Niki automatically boings to maximum height. Now, No dogs go out if Niki is bouncing and/or yapping, and I can help him with a cue. That goes for all. I do not move, and the dogs Know I Must move for them to get their turn. (they learn Fast) If they bark inappropriately, I capture and c/t all non-bark moments I can, and it can be done from a distance while physically with another dog, which I think helps thier overall anxiety about me paying attention to other dogs. Afterall, if I am with one dog and they, dogs waiting his/her turn, are still the ones hearing their name and getting treats which I can accurately toss, why should they fret? Waiting's ok, too.)

Whoever is giving me what I want, gets to go first, and the dogs will do what they see work for other dogs (social facilitation?). As in, 'that dog was sitting and got to go, maybe I'll try it!' It also works in reverse, as I've on occasion picked the jumping dog instead of the sitting dog, and the sitting dog then immediately jumps! Whoops! I am constantly rewarding the Other dogs, not the one I have on lead, as that dog is getting rewarded by being on lead with me headed to the yard, recognizing and rewarding with my attention, and clicking and sliding treats under the gates as I pass. If the dogs start barking some, well, dogs bark and it is not always inappropriate, but if it is, I can use delay of game until all are settled.

Same for mealtimes. All are quiet as I dish out kibble in front of them, and all are named, praised, and overall given good vibes for being so good, and clicked and treated, with one click and all treated. Then, if I go to place a bowl in a run, and Samuel starts his I'm-too-excited-hey-me!-bark, then I stop and become nothing, and Samuel gets quiet and I reward him by recognising him and continuing feeding, getting closer to him each time. It goes for all.

Bell is privledged when she stays here, and gets to do frisbee zooms outside the yards where I can let loose more with her. The other dogs in the yards and runs are excited about this, and will barkbarkbark. They learn, I will throw Bell the frisbee and you all can cheer for her After Everyone is quiet. Then I can put it on cue, and 20 barking dogs, some familiar, some not, will all stop when I utter this sound.

Sorry to be so winded, I have so many different tales I could share.I have been so amazed with how much faster and easier the dogs progress when I use the clicker with them routinely, and I have seen fear just melt away from those shrinking violets. And when I get caught without my clicker, I am doubly amazed at how better they are with compliance, not to mention how better it has made me with my timing and consistancy using verbals!

As for the public, sometimes I will show them how I c/t and explain why, and then I am the clickerer and I set them up to be the treaters. This also helps the dogs condition to strangers quietly.

Peace,
Diane Cuff

Karen on muggers (animals that rush or bite for food)

Good one, Dee. Feed muggers in a bowl away from you. Incidentally there is a great story about clicking a pig on www.clickertraining.com (home page, scroll down to the picture of the pig on the right --"Training the Clicked Retrieve--with a pig.") The writer wanted to try clicker training with her cocker spaniel but the dog fled from the sound. So she started in with a young wild pig from the woods behind her house (in Florida.) She also found she couldn't hand feed a pig safely so hit on using a feed trough to drop the food in. In just a few days she got a nice go-out and retrieve, using a rope toy, from this pig, and it was her first-ever clicker attempt; pretty good job, I thought.

Karen Pryor

Sound vs Clicker

Dear Karen,

My question is really a general question in regards to clicker training. Given the fact that clicker training is based on "classical conditioning" whereby an association is created between an conditioned stimulus (the 'click') and unconditioned stimulus (the food reward) whereby the conditioned stimulus (the 'click') comes to predict the appearance of the unconditioned stimulus (food reward), it is my understanding that this association works best when

1. The 'click' is followed immediately after the behavior to be rewarded, and

2. That the reward is followed very closely after the click.

In fact, from the "classical conditioning" point of view it has been found that it is best to have the 'click' begin first and have it slightly overlap the giving of the reward. The whole concept of classical conditioning implies, in theory, that any stimulus can be used to build such an association. My question really is this: There are times when we don't always have the clicker readily available at the time we need it or we have the clicker readily available but not the reward! Could a sound, such as a "psst" be used in place of a clicker with the theory being that one could give the "psst" sound at the moment of a "correct" behavior and extend or prolong that sound until the reward is actually given. I am not suggesting that the sound replace the clicker periodically when the clicker is not available, instead I am referring to the possibility of actually not using a clicker and instead using a "psst" sound for instance. That way your "conditioned stimulus" is always available! I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Anthony Hutchinson

More on Cheap treats

Not cheap, but my dogs find the new soft-moist treats made by Milk Bone to be tremendously attractive. I was at a non-profit pet hospital some time ago where they had huge bins of these, which I suspect were a corporate donation (they were in non-standard size containers that held pounds at a time.) I mention them in spite of the cost because most of the larger pet food companies do some charitable donations of their foods each year. It wouldn't hurt to ask Milk Bone if they could donate to your non-profit shelter. You might score those large buckets of treats that my dogs find irresistable.

Stacy Pober
Golightly Greyhounds

Subject: Re: Sound vs Clicker

I sometimes use three or four clicks during the long down (Not always with a treat between. Just a reassuring "good boy - stay or something like that" I have been able to keep my Labs attention that way. He had the bad habit of jumping on the other dogs in the line and this has elimated that. He might get one treat after the second click and a jackpot after the release.

He was so bad and I have MS so I do not have the strength to catch the lunge at the dogs. The other people actually became angry and complained to the instructor. Now they compliment me on how good he is:-)

If I don't have a clicker available I click with my tongue.

Kathleen

Karen on Gentle leader conditioning

I'm hoping Dee or Nancy will tell us what they do to shape acceptance of the Gentle Leader at Upper Valley. I know they use it somewhat differently than most people, clipping it to the regular buckle collar in order to facilitate transition.

I can chip in only with my own customs. I've provided GLs for various friends and acquaintances with large unmanageable dogs, over the years, and I used to convert dogs to them in seminars occasionally. I just put the nose band on to size it, then put the whole halter on (noseband and buckle collar) buckling the collar part comfortably as I would a normal buckle collar, and put the leash on and head out the door. I walk steadily, and the dog may bolt, plunge, or stop atogether, but if I do nothing at all except keep moving calmly, in next to no time it finds out how to keep the leash loose by itself and walk comfortably with me, and that's the end of that. I don't pull up or down or anything special, and if the dog tries to rub the collar off on its leg or the ground I just keep moving, quietly, so it doesn't have time to stop.

If you think about it, it's very much what a little puppy goes through when it wears its first buckle collar: tries to get rid of it, scratches it, bucks and resists when the leash comes taut.

It's negative reinforcement. The dog learns without much help from you that to keep looking and going forward it has to keep some slack in the leash; so it does. This does assume that the dog is going to elect to move forward on its own; you can't do this with a dog that pulls backward, at least I can't. In that case I get out the target and the clicks and treats.

I will add that my border terrier Twitchett wears her GL with complete aplomb; it's a signal we're going for a walk in the woods, to her.

At one of my DSTD seminars many years ago, Ruth Foster, co-inventor of the GL, stepped up and did a demo with an out-of-control otter hound. I must say, she was a lot tougher than I would be. She did the collar up VERY tightly and the dog whirled and corkscrewed and made an enormous commotion; with that dog I might not have forged ahead as firmly as Ruth did; I don't know. I'm eager to hear from Dee on this topic.

Karen Pryor

Melissa Alexander on Sound vs Clicker

Hi,

I wanted to jump in here.

Please consider the long-term ramifications of clicking without reating before you do it. The clicker is a conditioned reinforcer so, yes, it hasreinforcing properties of its own. BUT it's real power is not as a reinforcer, but as an event marker. To maintain the power as an event marker, the clicker must mean the same thing every single time. If the oghas to stop and wonder "What does it mean now?" or "Am I getting somethingthis time?", he's NOT concentrating on "What was I doing that earned thatwonderful reinforcement?"

Here's an analogy...

Imagine a five year old child. Each week he does chores, and his parents pay him for each chore he does. Wow! That's great. It won't take long for that little boy to understand that doing his chores gets him money (clicks, if you will) that he can use to get the toys and candy and other things he really wants. But what if the parents said, "You're earning this money, but some of it is going to be put in your savings account." The little boy gets to spend only 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 times. How motivated do you think he's going to be to earn that money now?

The clicker is a precise, powerful event marker. Why risk weakening it?

During a stay, just toss the dog a treat or just praise him. Don't weaken your clicker.

Melissa Alexander

Sound vs Clicker

I'm interested in the response to this, as well. I've recently started volunteering at an animal shelter, where they are using "positive reinforcement" methods to work with the dogs. They know about clicker training. In fact, they did the clicker game with us at our orientation class to introduce their training methods to the new volunteers. However, they don't use the clicker, but use the word "yessssssssss" in its place. In our next class, basic behavior, the instructor was showing how this was used, and had each student use it with the practice dog. Of course, each student's "yesssss" was different, and/or badly timed. Their reason for the "yessss" instead of the clicker: not all the volunteers will have a clicker on them; the new homes won't have a clue about clickers. They do have obedience training classes available at the site for the new adopters to take the dogs to. It seems like they are getting pretty good results with this method, but I'd rather use a clicker. Being new there, I don't feel that I should go against their wishes. (sender lost)

Karen to Melissa Alexander on clicking without treating

Thanks so much for jumping in here, Melissa! These are sound reasons for keeping the clicker paired with the treat.

Karen Pryor

Anthony Re: Sound vs Clicker

I agree - it is absolutely necessary to keep the clicker (or the conditioned reinforcer) paired with the reward. What I was wondering though is what are the advantages to using a clicker as a conditioned reinforcer instead of a sound such as a "psst" or "yessss"?

Anthony

(author lost)

One reason I was SO VERY happy to find the clikcer! I could condition dogs with no problem, but I had a Huge problem trying to get other people to do it just like me so the dogs would respond the same way, and in the same environment. The clicker is universal in sound and meaning.

Dianne Cuff

Their reason for the "yessss" instead of the clicker: not all the volunteers will have a clicker on them;

It's pretty easy to make them available upon entry, but I understand this isn't up to you.

... but I'd rather use a clicker. Being new > there, I don't feel that I should go against their wishes.

Would there be repercussions if you did? Or would people just look at you funny. They won't look at you funny after they see the results of your patience, kindness, and hard work!

Best of luck,
Diane Cuff

Melissa Alexander Re: Sound vs Clicker

Precision -- and for that reason, except during early learning, I reserve the clicker for more precise behavior. The clicker is a scalpel. A verbal marker is a kitchen knife. Which do you need for the job you're doing?

If I'm working on loose leash walking, and I'm rewarding the dog for the general behavior of "walking along my left side, more or less in heel position," I'll use a verbal -- or just deliver the primary directly.

If I'm training a stack for the conformation ring (which I'm doing now), I'm looking for more precise criteria. For example, "Pax's back feet stop less than one inch from 'even.'" Once I get the back feet even, I'll shape them a specific distance apart. Then I'll shape precise placement of the front feet. Then ear carriage. Then tail carriage. So on and so forth.

The point of a marker is to mark the instant a behavior occurs. A dog's but hits the ground in an instant. Yessssss doesn't capture that. (What if the dog jumps up right after? If you're just starting sit, and your criteria was "butt on the ground" you'll be lumping if you call it an error for getting up before you finish your event marker!)

There's also the link between the clicker and the amygdyla. There's an article on that on http://www.clickertraining.com. Honestly though, just try it. It really *does* make that much difference.

Melissa Alexander

Amy Sizemore Sound vs Clicker

Hi, Anthony,

Amy Sizemore of Cooperative Canine (Kent, WA) here. I personally alternate "good!" with a click. Similar to teaching a dog to sit using a verbal cue as the signal along with using your hand signal so the dog understands both, I sometimes click, say "good!" then treat so I can make both the click and the "good!" mean the same thing.

The great thing about a clicker is that it captures a 'moment'. Say you're trying to teach shake, for example, and your dog suddenly flings his paw at you then puts it back down immediately. You wouldn't be able to get a word out in that moment, but you could catch it with the clicker. Also, since my dogs know that the click is always followed by a treat, I can have them do a down stay, say "good!" or click, then casually get up and get the treat out of the fridge. They stay down eagerly anticipating the treat. I can even walk out of sight and they'll stay in anticipation that I'll soon be returning with their treat.

Karen on Sound vs Clicker

Dear Anthony, you wrote:

Given the fact that clicker training is based on "classical conditioning" whereby an association is created between an conditioned stimulus (the 'click') and unconditioned stimulus (the food reward) whereby the conditioned stimulus (the 'click') comes to predict the appearance of the unconditioned stimulus (food reward), it is my understanding that this association works best when

The 'click' is followed immediately after the behavior to be rewarded, and

That the reward is followed very closely after the click.

It's always interesting when someone brings up classical conditioning and the research around it, in a clicker discussion.

It's true that the link between the clicker and the treat is established by classical conditioning. Contrary to the textbook wisdom which says that the click should follow after the behavior to be rewarded, we find that it is far more effective, in terms of isolating and strengthening the behavior, if the click occurs during the behavior to be rewarded.

The pairing of click and treat is a very rapid process often happening during the first two or three clicks. Once that association has been made, the time it takes for the actual reward to be delivered, after the click, is then much less crucial. A gap of several seconds is perfectly satisfactory, especially since unlike an animal in a Skinner box the dog or horse or giraffe for that matter can SEE that the trainer is fishing around for a treat or has tossed a treat out that will be available as soon as it can be reached, even if it is some distance away. If you continue using the click to identify desired behavior, and the treat usually arrives within a few seconds (as opposed to "slightly overlapping the giving of the reward") the association between click and treat is strongly maintained and does not need to be 'shored up' or refreshed.

In operant conditioning therefore the timing of the click is crucial because it identifies the behavior; it is actually better if the treat comes somewhat unpredictably, in both time and space, because we don't want the treat to be identifying some other behavior if we can help it! The briefness of the click is also crucial because it pinpoints the exact muscle movements that are occurring during the behavior, facilitating recognition and retention of the behavior. Prolonging the 'click,' therefore, would weaken its value as a marker signal; and while it would mechanically fill the gap between click, or conditioned reinforcer, and treat, or primary reinforcer, that is a gap that doesn't really need to be filled, since the association is maintained, even with a gap, once the click has become an operant discriminant.

It is of course true that one often is caught without a clicker in a situation where you'd like to click something; most of us establish (with treats) a mouth click, or a word as click--mine is 'good' spoken unemotionally--that will serve in a pinch. These auxiliary clicks are not nearly as 'strong' as the click so they are not as useful in actual shaping of new behavior, but they're better than nothing when you're out for a walk and the dog does something extra special.

Finally, there are neurological advantages to using the sharp clear mechanical sound. For the learner, it's mediated in the limbic system, whereas fuzzier sounds, and particularly words, tend to be processed in the frontal lobes, and so are slower and less reinforcing. For the teacher, the click provides abstract feedback for YOU which your own word or mouth sound do not. As Melissa points out, you can tell, even a beginner can tell, if you clicked after the behavior was over--oops, I was late!--but you can't make the same discrimination nearly as easily with a word or noise you have made.

Karen Pryor

Dee Ganly replies, on Gentle Leader

We use the Gentle leader on 95% of the dogs who come into the shelter.

We fit them just with in the first few days and start by not attaching theleash but that its put on and then the dog gets to go out into the playcage. We do Click and then treat while fitting the G/L to the dog. Usuallyby the tied of fourth day the dog is happy to put it on. We do take the G/Loff before putting the dog into the pen. It then hangs on the pen till wetake the dog out. We usually take the dog out of the pen and then put theG/L on using a piece of Hot dog or some food treat.. Again don't attach theleash to the G/L till the third day, By then the dg is looking forward toseeing the gentle leader because he has been conditioned he is going out!! Now once we start attaching the leash we also hook to the dogs regular NoSlip collar. This way the pressure s not so sever. If you pull up on thegentle leader it closes the dogs mouth. Causing it to panic..IMHO Weusually never use it with out attaching the clasp to both rings one to theG/L and one to the buckle collar. By the time the dog goes onto theadoptable side he/she is already accustomed to the G/L We aren't seeing as many Bucking Bronco's any more..!! I can send the info that we train volunteers and staff on the use of G/Ljust email me privately and I'll send to you!! We do couple of different things for loose leash walking some clicker.. I'll answer that at a later time..sorry I need to go home!!

Dee

Karen Clouston on Sound vs Clicker

I have been lurking, and very much enjoying the conversations today. Thank you so much Karen for doing this, and I'm so honored to be able to listen in! I've heard discussions before about sound vs. clicker, and I would never argue with someone that one is better than the other. However, when I am helping someone with their dog (I am not a professional, still learning), I explain that the clicker is better than a verbal sound because a click is always, always, totally non-emotional.

In instances where I have helped with a dog with what I call owner stress (the owner gets frustrated and the dog starts displaying what in my humble estimation are stress relaxed or avoidance behaviors), I explain that we need to alleviate the stress first. Both in the owner and the dog. Getting an emotional human to not feel any emotion is a tough thing to do. So if I can get them to stop using their voice for anything other than high, giddy praise, we are ahead of the game. Using a clicker is a totally non-emotional marker for a wanted behavior. I think they could click with thier tongue if they wanted, but it lacks the snap of an actual clicker.

Karen Clouston
Edmonton, Alberta

Karen Pryor on volunteers not using clickers

"You wrote:

Their reason for the "yessss" instead of the clicker: not all the volunteers will have a clicker on them; the new homes won't have a clue about clickers."

These are excuses, or arguments, but not reasons, exactly.Volunteers can have clickers--at one shelter I visited recently a bowl of about 200 clickers sits in the main room for volunteers to use as needed.

People can learn to click on time more easily than they can learn to say a word on time, and of course the words are variable as well as late.

And I like to see adopters go home with a short clicker experience from the adoption counsellor--if only clicking and treating the dog a few times, and perhaps clicking a sit--and then with a beginner's kit to use as a resource at home. If all they do is click the dog a few times in the new environment, as I've said before, today, the dog is vastly helped in making the transition. Merely using a word that the dog may or may not recognize, coming from a new person, is far less powerful as reassurance.

The main reason for not clicking with the general public, I think, in shelters, in training clubs and classes etc., is that there's no established protocol for teaching the general public. Fitting clickers into a leash-based standard obedience class is bewildering for the teachers, and the new ways people are teaching the People--not the dogs--how to communicate with the clicker have not been disseminated very well yet. So the trainers don't know quite HOW to teach clicker use, and feel more comfortable with a word.

"They do have obedience training classes available at the site for the new adopters to take the dogs to. It seems like they are getting pretty good results with this method, but I'd rather use a clicker. Being new there, I don't feel that I should go against their wishes."

Well, maybe you can start by using a clicker for kennel work and with the dog walking. The dogs learn from the clicker how to relate to people and how to try to learn; so even a little clicker work makes them more likely to focus and try to find out what's wanted when they get to a class, no matter how the class is being taught.

KP
karen@clickertraining.com

multidog enclosures

I am a behaviourist based in Cape Town, South Africa and am involved in a shelter rehabilitation pilot programme called the Animal Rehabilitation Initiative. Can anyone please advise us about using the clicker in a 2 dog enclosure to differentially reinforce non- barking, for instance. While clicking more than one dog in a training or behavioural consultation scenario has never proved to be a problem, I do find that it can become confusing when dealing with two dogs behind a gate/fence. To get into the enclosure before clicking each time is unviable, and one dog is bound to be at risk of succumbing to 'learned irrelevance' re the clicker, surely.

A second query. In trying to alleviate kennel stress, I do try to use the clicker as well as management and classical conditioning options. I find myself struggling with some dogs who are (as James o'Heare would say) 'limbic' or in an extreme state of emotionality and not prone to learning. The classic hyper-aroused fence runner, as an example. Dogs in this state of 'mind' seem impossible to motivate with food, play, toys or even attention..

We would appreciate any help
Mike Wood

Subject: [KP-online] question on when Not to click

Howdy folks,

OK - here goes. I introduce the c/t to the dogs and all is well. They learn that they get to go out and be a dog and learn more fun games, and at this point, most do not care about the treat, but this is where I need it most. I have taught owner/dog teams where the dog seemed totally uninterested in teh treat, but still caught on to what it means, and eventually took the treat, but this is in a one-on-one deal. What I'm asking about is when a dog is so geared up to go out to the yard, and now cares nothing about the treat and has successfully had c/t sessions, should I choose to click and reward with the life reward of forward movement or choose another marker?

I have experimented some and the click hits them deeply, where as my voice can be lost in the excitement. I "think" that when I click and move forward, the dogs are getting it and some may check (I offer, but feel like I'm possibly adding stress by not initially treating with what they want but with what I want) for a treat and not care, and others just don't care, but their expressions to me say they get it and go on, but will this lessen the power of the click later? I haven't seen that happen but nor do I want to. I used to just use a verbal marker and reward with forward movement, and I've now seen where I used to be inconsistant with timing or word choice. Anyway, would it be better to, in this instance, go back to using a verbal marker? I really think the click itself if better but I want to phase out some tastytreat delivery and just concentrate on going forward in this situation.Any thoughts?

Peace and Light,
Diane Cuff

Subject: Re: [KP-online] Re: Sound vs Clicker

Hi Anthony, I use the word "CLICK" if I don't have my clicker handy, and believe me my Rottie knows that word means treat to follow. Timing is certainly the issue, but I really like the neutrality of the clicker itself. It never has a bad day at work :-)

Kathy Baker (Pet Owner)Sanford, Fl.

Karen on non-food reinforcers

You may pair the clicker with all kinds of desired events, not just food treats. For example in my household I might click the dogs for waiting politely at the door and then open the door and let them out, as the treat. Back in the dolphin training days we learned that the more different kinds of fun things we paired with the click, the stronger the click became. For example, opening a gate for group play could be one kind of reinforcer, a ball or a new toy could be another. So freedom to go forward is a treat. Whether you pair it with the click or with a word is up to you. Certainly in that situation you won't be doing any precise training, so you might save your click for the end of the walk, when the dog has calmed down a little and might be prepared again to start learning things.

Subject: Re: [KP-online] multidog enclosures

You wrote:

"Can anyone please advise us about usingthe clicker in a 2 dog enclosure to differentially reinforce non-barking, for instance. While clicking more than one dog in a training or behavioural consultation scenario has never proved to be a problem, I do find that it can become confusing when dealing with two dogs behind a gate/fence. To get into the enclosure before clicking each time is unviable, and one dog is bound to be at risk of uccumbing to 'learned irrelevance' re the clicker, surely."

There's not much harm in clicking and treating both dogs. In fact if both are quiet, they both earned the click and the treat. If one is quiet, you can make eye contact with that dog, click, and feed a treeat through the fence just to that dog. The other dog will hear the click but it won't get a treat, so the behavior will not be reinforced. If this happens several times, even though the barking dog heard the click while barking, it saw the other dog get the treat, and it will in fact try to do what the other dog was doing--being quiet. Then you can click and jackpot both dogs with a handful of treats.

In general it is safe to click were more than one can hear, and just treat the one you wanted, because the one you wanted is repeating the same behavior, but the others might be doing a variety of different things; no one particular behavior becomes accidentally conditioned, as a general rule. (Parrots are a big of an exception, but usually I think it is due to inexperience on the part of the bird.)

You can do this with several animals, click them all but treat selectively--it's a fast way to get all of them doing the same thing. Standard dolphin training procedure, by the way.

On my website, in Letters from Karen for, I think, February 2002, there's a cute photo of a whole bunch of Tibetan terriers, adults and puppies alike, sitting for a treat together, having been trained in just this way. When they each knew the job, then they all had to be sitting for the click to happen. The owner remarked that if one adult was slow to sit the puppies would poke it to hurry up so they could all get clicked. Same with de barking two or more dogs.

Karen Pryor

Dee Ganley on multidog enclosures

Hi Mike..I'm at home phew!! so computer is working just fine!! I have 131 messages from all of you!! Gosh and I thought karen and nancy were sending me most of them!! oops!!

I have several house dogs and work for the Upper valley Humane Society.. regarding the two dog problem.. as long as you reinforce the correct dog the other dog will figure out whats going on..In the kennel for instance we work the dog for sitting and being quiet.. While reinforcing one dog the rest are trying to figure out what going on.. they don't want to miss out on anything.. When I'm working with one dog the other figure this out because when I click they are not being reinforced!! So be patient and reinforce the dog who is quiet. make sure you have lots of toys outside for those toy crazy dogs to play with. We also have dog pools filled with water for the dogs to cool off in..

For the fence runner put him out by himself at a quiet time of day. Put a long line on him and C/T for not pacing but for just hanging out.. Teach him a relax down if you have too..Work on being quiet!! help him to learn what's expected. He may only want to be in the shelter with people instead of outside with lots of dogs. try putting him out with a different dog.. maybe something younger or even older quiet types.

If its a really obnoxious dog you can try the citronella spray no bark collars.. we use them for those really crazy barkers who just like to here their own voice.

The spray will startle them it has nothing to do with the smell.

We will mark the behavior by saying something like "too bad" or "Oops" and then put the collar on the dog.

But remember that this collar works by sound not by vibration.. So if a dog is in the same pen and barks he will get sprayed.. Also if the dog has a loose fitting collar on this might activate the collar when the dog shakes its head. The dog will be startled when it barks and then will be quiet for a moment or two..this is your chance to reinforce for not barking.

Once the dog has been quiet for a while we will Click and take the collar off!! The dogs figure this out pretty quickly.

I want you to make sure that you are not using the collar for excitement barkers when people come into the kennel area what we don't want to do is to pair something bad with seeing new people..So we don't use this on alarm barkers or fear related barkers!!

We also don't worry about dogs that bark while there dinner is being prepared.

We will make sure that when we are serving dinner that the dog has to sit or lie down before being fed!! If its barking we just place the food outside its kennel and return later to feed it once its quiet!!

Remember NO Free LUNCH!!

Dee Ganley CPDT

5 dogs group

Hello everyone

I am a trainer from Lithuania. I started clicker training only this year. It works very good with kennel dogs, but we have problems with groups. Can anyone please recomend clicker training program, or some advices for 5-6 dogs-their owners group?

Thank you very much
A Popov
Lithuania
Europe

Dianne Cuff on Karen's post about other things to pair with the click

--- In KP-online@y..., "Karen Pryor" wrote:

>> You may pair the clicker with all kinds of desired events, not just food treats. For example in my household I might click the dogs for waiting politely at the door and then open the door and let them out, as the treat. Back in the dolphin training days we learned that the more different kinds of fun things we paired with the click, the stronger the click became. For example, opening a gate for group play could be one kind of reinforcer, a ball or a new toy could be another. So freedom to go forward is a treat. Whether you pair it with the click or with a word is up to you.<<

YEE-HA! What I wanted to hear! I just didn't want to distract from the click, and I don't use the click in this situation unless the dog is already familiar with it. If it is not, I stick with my verbal and start clicking once we get to the yard and the dog can focus more, but I usually start them in the building. I am Thrilled to learn that the more good things I can pair with the click, the better, as I thought that may be distracting. I have used different types of tasties with the best treats for the best responses, but I was uncertain about using the click if the reinforcement was not what I thought it should be. I shouldn't think so much.

>>Certainly in that situation you won't be doing any precise training, so you might save your click for the end of the walk, when the dog has calmed down a little and might be prepared again to start learning things.<<

I'm not sure I follow you about not doing precise training here. I have been able to back up my clicks to get the dogs walking with me under this excitement, which of course is taught in easier contexts also. For example, the dog knows c/t and I have marked proper placement in relation to me - what I want, away from all the excitement but in the same environment (going to the yard) and the dog will take the treat.

Now, I want to mark that same placement around other dogs and under exciting circumstances, upping criteria, right?. When we, the dog and I, start, I will see the dog go out ahead too fast, I stop (sometimes I can cue for eye contact or target, and click and go, but I have been at least trying to deliver a treat or positive touch, also, and, if the dog is not responding, I may walk a different way, and not to the yard at all and then the dog is somewhat confused and stays closer to me and Bingo! c/t with movement to the yard.), the dog relaxes, I c/t and step ahead, and at first it is step by step, click and go, and I have been, now I see, too busy with the treat part. I then play the placement game in the yard, and the dog is excellent going back to the run, as the dog is well exercised and settled.

Next trip to the yards in a few hours, I can mark just Before the dog gets out ahead (again, cue eye contact or 'here' with targeting) and arrest forward movement for an instant to reward, but the treat's no good, only the forward movement is, so I click/praise/try to touch or treat and step out quickly while the dog is still in a good position in relation to me, but we are on fast-forward and I must be quick. It looks like to me now that I was making a mistake and loosing the moment. My problem has been trying to deliver an Additional treat that "I" thought was necessary, but it's not, huh. Then, I get 2 steps with the dog right, and I c/t and this is where I've been trying to get the dog to take a reward "I" find rewarding where it is ok to just click and continue, and the dog should steadily, maintain position. This is not training?

The dog knows what click means before I impliment it going to the yards, and now I feel ok just to offer the forward movement while clicking and not a tastytreat, 'cause to the dog the hotdog is not worth more than being a dog. It will make things easier now that I am not going to worry about tasties for those who don't care, and it'll make my timing better, as I've lost good placement with my fussing over the reward. I have lots of practice waiting :) .

Thank you SO much!

Peace,
Diane Cuff

Karen wow! Great Day!

Wow! by six pm we had a total of 131 posts! You guys have been wonderful!

Dee Ganley, the head trainer at our feature shelter Upper Valley Humane Society, had computer trouble all day--as well as classes to teach, and the usual interruptions of a busy office. I'm glad she still had the strength when she got home to give us this excellent summary of barky dogs and the various reasons for them and clicker-type management solutions for them--solutions that are in use at UVHS.

Karen Pryor

Subject: Re: [KP-online] 5 dogs group

Hi. I think we need a discussion on how to run a clicker class that Works. How about making that the September topic, folks? For a similar two-day email feast? Just a thought.

Karen Pryor

That would be GREAT! Pleeeeaaase Do!
Diane Cuff

Teaching classes

> --- In KP-online@y..., "Karen Pryor" wrote:

> > Hi. I think we need a discussion on how to run a clicker class that works. How about making that the September topic, folks? For a similar two-day email feast? Just a thought.

I would look forward to it! I am looking at trying to set up an informal 8 week class (the only charge would be to cover the rent on the facility) through a local kennel club for folks that foster. It would be my first attempt at a group class and I need all the help I can get. The timing would be perfect! Thank you!

Karen Clouston

Karen Re: Education

Thanks, James.

If you are really thinking about an advanced degree the University of North Texas, outside Dallas, has a whole department dedicated to practical applications of behavioral science (for a start, it's in the School of Community Services, along with the teachers, cops, and nurses, not in the mental health or psychology departments.) They have produced so far the first two clicker-training masters' theses, wonderful studies with real long-term implications for all of us. One student used the problem of trailer loading horses, the other a presumably simple job of halter training three goats at a petting zoo, to tease apart some remarkable truths, backed up by very careful data. I'll be glad to put the interested person in touch with the people involved if you email me privately.

Karen Pryor Re: Dianne Cuff on using movement as the reinforcer

This is fabulous clicker training, from a gifted intuitive trainer, folks, who is using the clicker very well. Read and study this interesting account of clicking On the Move, with movement as the reinforcer, and using that to bring the dog not just under control but into self-control.

"My problem has been trying to deliver an Additional treat that "I" thought was necessary, but it's not, huh. Then, I get 2 steps with the dog right, and I c/t and this is where I've been trying to get the dog to take a reward "I" find rewarding where it is ok to just click and continue, and the dog should steadily, maintain position. This is not training?"

It's more than training, it's teaching.

Diane wrote, "The dog knows what click means before I implement it going to the yards, and now I feel ok just to offer the forward movement while clicking and not a tasty treat, 'cause to the dog the hotdog is not worth more than being a dog. It will make things easier now that I am not going to worry about tasties for those who don't care."

Then Diane said,

"YEE-HA! What I wanted to hear! I just didn't want to distract from the click, and I don't use the click in this situation unless the dog is already familiar with it. If it is not, I stick with my verbal and start clicking once we get to the yard and the dog can focus more, but I usually start them in the building. I am Thrilled to learn that the more good things I can pair with the click, the better."

Click, Diane!

Dee Ganley and Nancy Lyon's paper on Loose Leash Walking:

Getting your dog to walk without pulling!

We are masters at allowing our dogs to drag us down the street. The most asked question at obedience classes and private consultations is "how can I get my dog not to pull on his leash?" As far as dogs and leashes are concerned, loose leashes "pay off" and tight leashes don't.

Historically trainers encouraged folks to act like a tree the moment their dog began to pull on the leash. This method does work nicely with puppies, but it just doesn't work for the adolescent or older dog who has learned to pull you around.

The following method requires first, that all or most reinforcement will come from behind you and second, that you will toss the food to the ground -not far- so the dog has to look for it.

Loose leash walking is going to begin as a game. Here are 4 simple steps you will train BEFORE you do any walking with your dog:

Put your dog's leash on and just stand still. When your dog releases the tension on the leash, click and show him the treat in your hand. Let him see you place the treat on the ground by the outside of your left foot. Once he's eaten the treat, move to the end of the range of the leash so it is taut and stand quietly. When he moves to release the tension, click. Show him the treat and place it by your left foot. You don't care about eye contact. What you are teaching is that releasing the leash tension gets clicked and treated. Do this a number of times.

Continue to stand now that your dog is not pulling. Now you will click for eye contact. After the click, treat by your left foot. Remember after he has finished eating the treat to move to the end of the leash. Click and treat three times for looking at you while on a loose leash

Again, just standing with your dog on a

Online Discussion with Karen Pryor: Clicker Training in the Shelter Environment

The Shelter Discussion

Note from Karen:

Opening message of welcome from Karen Pryor

Dee Ganley, Upper Valley Head Trainer, asks questions of everyone

Karen:

From: "bcrescue_tx" Subject: [KP-online] Hello

Kate Behaine has some questions

Dennis Owens Minimizing resistance to change

Karen responds to Dennis Owens Subject: Re: [KP-online] Minimizing resistance to change

From: Karen Pryor Subject: Re: Short term use of clicker in shelters

Karen comments on value of sharing knowledge:

Karen responds to a question from Danielle on clicking shy shelter dogs

Bev Manheim on shy shelter dogs Subject: Re: [KP-online] using the clicker short term in rescue situations

Nat asks about clicker training's effect on adoption rates, and clicking cats.

Karen Responds to Nat's post about clicking cats

Carol Stevens on clicking cats

Diane Cuff Subject: [KP-online] Re: Clicker Training cats in the shelter

Danielle Gauthier asks about barking in the crate or kennel

Karen says:

Karen responds to Deb on hands off training

Susan Mann on changing a tough shelter

Dee Ganley replies to a question about long term kennel problems:

Thank you very much.

Alejandra Pardo MenÃ©ndez on dogs confusing who got clicked

Karen on topic When you suspect previous obedience training...

Karen on Minimizing resistance to change and the tough shelter

Dee Ganley Upper Valley program answers questions about adoptability data

Lisa Rodier and Sherri Lippman introduce a clicker program in a new shelter

Karen on clicking multiple dogs

Karen asks:

From: Dee Ganley Dogs who already know how to sit!!

Karen to Carol from Austin. Cats in the Shelter Environment II

Susan Mann Re: Minimizing resistance to change

Karen on Upper Valley tips

Karen answers Shelter Starts Clicking!

Linda on power of clicker with scared strays

Karen on public clicking dogs in the kennels

Nancy Lyon on resistance

Just a thank you for Dee and Karen

Karen on schools for clicker training (query lost)

Alejandra on cheap treats

Thanks, Susan,

Quincy Animal Shelter needs help

Karen on Cheap treats

Welcome to the new members who keep signing on! This is a great discussion opportunity for all of us!

Subject: Cheap treats

Cats in the Shelter Environment II

Melissa Alexander, owner of the Clicker Solutions list

Dee Ganley on targeting for fear issues

Karen replies to Need Help starting

Cats would like those, too! (was Re: Cheap treats

Karen on Cat crazy for treats II

Subject: Re: [KP-online] Hello

James O'Heare Re: Education

Karen on dog barking in crate

Jeannie on adoption kits

I have a question regardin non food motivaed dogs.

Targeting for fear issues

Gentle leader conditioning?

Subject: [KP-online] Re: Education

Subject: [KP-online] Is this information going to be available after today?

Subject: [KP-online] Cheap Treats

Dee Ganley on barking dog in the crate

Diane Cuff on Cat that grabs at the owner for food

Karen on muggers (animals that rush or bite for food)

Sound vs Clicker

More on Cheap treats

Subject: Re: Sound vs Clicker

Karen on Gentle leader conditioning

Melissa Alexander on Sound vs Clicker

Sound vs Clicker

Karen to Melissa Alexander on clicking without treating

Anthony Re: Sound vs Clicker

(author lost)

Dianne Cuff

Melissa Alexander Re: Sound vs Clicker

Amy Sizemore Sound vs Clicker

Karen on Sound vs Clicker

Dee Ganly replies, on Gentle Leader

Karen responds to Dennis Owens
Subject: Re: [KP-online] Minimizing resistance to change

From: Karen Pryor
Subject: Re: Short term use of clicker in shelters

Bev Manheim on shy shelter dogs
Subject: Re: [KP-online] using the clicker short term in rescue situations